Liliputin- 5498

Mr. President, you probably don’t even hear it when it happens ...”
LBJ

Liliputins. What, the heck, is this?
http://stihi.ru/2021/11/24/7101

***
You probably don’t even hear it when it happens.”

I hear a lot of people quoting this statement of Bobby’s as thematic evidence for Tony’s death at the end of the series, but I don’t buy it for one reason: Bobby’s own words, at least in his case, were not true. He spent his last moments absorbing a spray of bullets knowing full well he was being assassinated. In saying you “probably don’t hear it when it happens” Bobby tried to rationalise the deaths of his fellow mobsters as being not unlike simply going to sleep, or just fading into the ether, but much like almost every other platitude these degenerates spat out and lived by, it turned out to be utter horseshit. “You probably don’t hear it when it happens” isn’t David Chase’s way of clueing you in to Tony’s death, it’s an ironic indictment of the gangster lifestyle and the lies these bastards tell themselves to help them get to sleep at night when their own violent demise looms over every near horizon. Just my .02.


The key word is 'probably' Some people see it and hear it coming sadly.

The other hint is Silvio recounting the story of not even hearing a gunshot go off right next to him as a person get's whacked at the same table. It wasn't until blood sprayed on him that Sil even noticed something had happened.

I'd also say Phil didn't hear it happen either.



Others who absolutely did see it coming:

Brendan Fillone Chucky Signore Mikey Palmice Jimmy Altieri Matt Bevilaqua Angelo Garepe Lorraine Caluzzo Vito Spatafore

And so on.

My point is only that Bobby’s statement is not watertight, and therefore cannot be considered a watertight piece of evidence for a definitive conclusion about Tony’s death. I have other beliefs about the direction of the ending that serve this less-than-definitive interpretation as well, but my biggest and boldest is that to insert Tony’s actual death into the series would be at the expense of one of the core themes of the show, i.e. Tony’s never-ending internment in his self-imposed spiritual prison - the only fate that would make death a relief; a relief he could not have appreciated if he understood it and would not have deserved if he received it, but a relief nonetheless - and he gets none, because what little is left of his life will be spent regarding every stranger with suspicion, every friend with a wary eye, his family with a tired kind of shame, and himself with the same puerile emotional judgments as have always constituted his depressive complexes (and these compounded now by the fact that his years of therapy were all for nought - he is really, truly unable to be helped). Again, just my 0.02c, but I’ve always thought a definitive interpretation precludes some of the most important conversations that could be had about what kind of person Tony really is by the time the screen cuts to black.


Probably went through his entire life never knowing a Ford Explorer would crush skull. Leatardo....that his fkn legacy!!!



How about that?


How bout dat, how bout dat.

The God Of Sopranos draws a different conclusion. The depiction presents a strong possibility of Tony's death at that final instant but Not a definitive outcome. This all is entirely intentional.


Oh my god. I had no idea that was updated recently with a lot of new Chase quotes I've never seen before. Tony is deader than ever. Thanks for posting that again.


I am familiar with this, and still don’t buy it. Not in the literal sense, anyway. My belief is that the direction is a red herring at best. Camp “Whether He Dies Or Not Is Not The Point” all the way, baby!

Ive always felt Tony doesnt die BUT goes to jail soon after the diner scene. I interpret it as the "last supper" for that family. Also we know Tony cant handle jail so he probably would rather take the bullet

I agree. People just want him to have died because they are so averse to a life goes on ending, and he deserves it they think. Those 2 things combine to bias them strongly in favor of Tony dying.

A bit off topic but I don’t want to create another thread about the ending.

I’ve been wondering the last few days, how did members only jacket guy know that Tony would be at Holstens? Was it Paulie who tipped off New York?


I’ve heard that, but I think the evidence for that theory is pretty scant. I prefer to believe that the ghost of Big Pussy dropped a phantom anchor on T’s head, like the icicle in The Lovely Bones.


Yea, but Bobby heard it coming because they were shooting multiple times to kill him. As for Tony, you don’t know where if the assailant was in the diner at all, or just knew he was there. It was speculated Tony died either sometime before Meadow came into the diner, or after. She also took a long time to parallel park. Which was like she’s going to go into the diner and see her dad die. It’s the constant fear of getting killed. Tony made a lot of enemies over the years and people might still hate him for killing a lot of people like Febby Petrulio, Chucky Signore, Matthew Bevilaqua, Big Pussy, Ralph Cifaretto, Tony Blundetto, Willie Overall, Phil Leotardo, Jackie Jr, and Christopher Moltisanti. You got to think someone probably hated Tony enough to have him killed in front of his family.


I’m resurrecting an old thread here, because I watched the finale again and am now down the Reddit rabbit hole…

But I think we should consider taking the line about not hearing it, quite literally. The sound you hear from a gun shot is the bullet breaking the spreed of sound, causing a sonic boom.

I think what Bobby was suggesting is that the bullet would “probably” hit you before you’d literally even hear it.

So you’re right - there were others that SAW it coming. But the likes of Phil and Tony? All they saw was “a fade to black” because they never heard it coming.

My thoughts exactly. However, I don’t think it’s the speed of sound but rather the explosion that propels the bullet out of the barrel.  Either way, the bullet would be in your head before the sound could permeate your senses. Also it’s been confirmed that T died in that scene.


***
JFK conspiracy theorist points finger at LBJ
Michael Clancy The Arizona Republic

Scottsdale attorney Craig I. Zirbel has written two books, about the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

Zirbel has written two self-published books on the assassination
He believes Lyndon B. Johnson and his associates in Texas were behind killing
Zirbel says public beginning to lose interest in assassination
PHOENIX -- LBJ did it.

He didn't pull the trigger, but he was in the thick of the conspiracy, according to a Scottsdale attorney who has written two books on the subject.

President John F. Kennedy was shot dead in Dallas 50 years ago Friday, and the attorney is certain that Lee Harvey Oswald's only involvement was as the fall guy.

On a recent morning, Craig Zirbel is sitting at a nondescript office in the Scottsdale Airpark, behind a desk that he says once belonged to Joseph McCarthy, the Wisconsin senator famous for his claims that Communists had infiltrated the government.


Zirbel has written two books on the Kennedy assassination, and, McCarthyesque government conspiracies aside, he says the public has but two choices on deciding what to believe about that November day: Either Lee Harvey Oswald, a man with no motive did it, or another theory must be devised.

A majority of people, according to polls, believe the conspiracy idea and have for a long time.


Zirbel delivers his conclusions with enthusiasm, waving his arms and raising his voice.

"I don't believe Oswald pulled the trigger," Zirbel says.

The attorney has been interested in the assassination for a long time.

Zirbel was in third grade when Kennedy was killed. He got a copy of the Warren Commission report on the assassination a year later, shortly after it was published. He says he did not understand much of it at the time, but he maintained his interest over the years.

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The report, based on an investigation by a select government committee, concluded that Oswald acted alone in killing Kennedy. That has been the official finding ever since.

But that has not stopped conspiracy theories from persisting.

Zirbel has self-published two books on the subject, "The Texas Connection" in 1991 and "The Final Chapter on the Assassination of John F. Kennedy" in 2010. The titles have been well-received by some people, criticized by others — typical of the contentious and eccentric world of Kennedy conspiracy theorists.


One of them, political strategist Roger Stone, is the author of "The Man Who Killed Kennedy: The Case against LBJ," which came out this year.

"Craig Zirbel did some of the earliest and most important seminal work on LBJ's involvement in the murder of JFK," Stone said in an email. "I have used his book, 'The Texas Connection,' with attribution. I have tried to build on the solid foundation built by Zirbel."

Not all assassination buffs agree. It is easy to find numerous commentators who believe Zirbel misinterpreted some of the data.

The title of the book gives away Zirbel's position: that Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson and his associates in Texas were behind the assassination.

If Oswald did not pull the trigger — and Zirbel provides a list of reasons he believes he did not — then the explanation becomes more elusive.

Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson, left, and President John F. Kennedy attend a dinner for Sen. Carl Hayden in Arizona.
Those who have interest in the case know the scenarios:

-- The Central Intelligence Agency, perhaps upset by changes in the agency that followed the failed Bay of Pigs invasion aimed at ousting Fidel Castro from leadership in Cuba.

-- The Mafia, arguably because of law-enforcement moves against organized crime by the Kennedy administration.


-- Anti-Castro Cuban exile groups, upset by the Bay of Pigs failure, perhaps working closely with the previous two groups.

-- Others, including the military industrial complex, a government agency such as the FBI, Southern segregationists, the Soviet Union or American conservatives.

Zirbel makes the case that Johnson, and only Johnson, had the motive, the means and the opportunity to mount a conspiracy against the president.

The motive: political gain. There were political differences, personal issues, Johnson's involvement in several scandals and his desire to become president before he got too old.

The opportunity: Kennedy's visit to LBJ's home turf in Texas. Johnson and his associates controlled many of the trip's details.

The means: shots by multiple gunmen firing from the direction of the now infamous grassy knoll. Hired perhaps by Johnson associates in the oil business, who had ties to the Mafia, Zirbel insists, there were at least two shooters.


He also emphasizes that as president, Johnson had the means to block any serious investigation.

And Oswald? His movements, his statements and his background make no sense if he was the lone gunman, Zirbel says. Even the site of the fatal shots was out of whack: Oswald would have had a much easier target several seconds earlier, as the motorcade slowed to turn twice, Zirbel notes.

It's the awkward turns, rather than the otherwise direct route the motorcade took, that strikes Zirbel.

"It's the thing that blows my mind away," he says. "It's the first time a route ever was changed from what the Secret Service had established."

The revised route took the motorcade directly past the Texas School Book Depository building and Dealey Plaza, site of the grassy knoll, from which many theorists believe the shots were fired.

Zirbel says John Connally, then Texas governor, had insisted upon the arrangement. Connally was an ally of Johnson. He, in fact, lost a fight over motorcade seating arrangements, was forced to ride with Kennedy and was wounded in the shooting.

Zirbel also points to statements by two known participants in his conspiracy: Oswald, who shouted, "I'm a patsy!" to nearby reporters at the Dallas jail, and Oswald's killer, Jack Ruby, who was quoted as saying, "If you knew the truth, you'd be amazed."

But it has been 50 years, and no conclusive evidence has emerged. Zirbel says the public is beginning to lose interest in the assassination. He says he never had interest in the "minutae," and is losing interest generally.

He has begun to sell off his assassination memorabilia, including his replica of the car the president was riding in that fateful day. Media calls have slowed down, too, bumping back up only because of the significance of the anniversary.

He still wants the public to see the case for what it is.

"All I want to get out," he says, "is that there was no lone assassin, and there was a conspiracy."

He and his like-minded investigators in the field have to be gratified with their efforts, although the numbers have slipped over the last decade.

According to a recent survey from the Associated Press, conducted in mid-April, 59 percent of Americans think multiple people were involved in a conspiracy to kill the president, while 24 percent think Oswald acted alone, and 16 percent are unsure. A 2003 Gallup poll found that 75 percent of Americans felt there was a conspiracy.

The Oswald-acted-alone results, meanwhile, are the highest since the period three years after the assassination, when 36 percent said one man was responsible for Kennedy's death.