Narochnitskaya - In trouble not with the state...

Natalia Narochnitskaya: "in trouble not with the state, A fatherland!"

N. Boltyanskii - 15 hours 8 minutes. You listen to "Echo of Moscow". We microphone Natella Boltyanskaya. In our studio Natalya Narochnitskaya, deputy chairman of the Duma Committee for International Affairs. Natalia - historian. Hello!

N. Narochnitskaya - Good day!

N. Boltyanskii - Natalia, this is what is preferable to start: the day today or is it the day yesterday?

N. Narochnitskaya - In order to understand the present day, of course, be good to know their own history, and in its complete continuity.

N. Boltyanskii - Then let us so. Maybe not so much about Stalin's role in the victory over fascism, as I allow myself to quote the title of your book: "For what and with whom we fought."

N. Narochnitskaya - Yes, it is no accident that my book is named that way. It is generally conceived as a response to the book "History of Latvia", which distributed the Latvian President Vike-Freiberga. The fact that it is now witnessing the complete change of interpretation of the meaning of the Second World War and the Great Patriotic War as its main component. If you've always believed, as Hitler has set a goal to conquer the world and to transform other nations into slaves for the masters of the nation that the war was for the life of European nations, for the Frenchman was left to a Frenchman, a Dane Dane to Latvian, Estonian and Pole turned into a swineherd in the housemaids for the gentlemen of the Third Reich, ie not disappeared from history as a nation, does not become a faceless human material without their own sins, take-offs, ie without a history, now with a light hand of some historians and our own, alas, the interpretation of the detractors of the war was quite different.

Now, supposedly the war was waged not for the life of European peoples, and for American democracy. Results of the Second World War - is the outcome of redistribution of the world by two totalitarian predators, is disgusting monsters: the Soviet Union of the Stalin period and the Hitler Reich. And so it is necessary to question these results. The reason some of the current demonization of the so-called Stalin's Soviet Union - not the moral motives. And for some reason, Lenin always spared for the crushing of a great empire, which, incidentally, no one disputed part of the Baltic states was?

Hence, the problem is not in the repression in such. After all, we note in the 37 th year - a maximum of Stalin's repressions - and 20-ies - the Leninist terror - the Soviet government had no great power. It was her only after May 45 th, after the sacrificial struggle against Nazi aggression. So the object of hatred and demonization - great power of our country in any of the ever-existing forms.

And that has made a great power? Yalta and Potsdam - is to restore the territory of pre-revolutionary Russia and the enormous prestige as the main fighter against fascism. So this should dispel. Moreover, we note that not all after the territorial outcome of the Second World War, been questioned. No one disputes, for example, the revision in favor of France, the Italian-French border and transfer to Rhodes island of Greece and, incidentally, with the consent of Stalin, despite the fact that the Greek Communists then all would be in prison.

No one questions that, for example, Warsaw - Poland - received a third of its territory from the hands of the Red Army - Silesia - 400 years it was Prussia, which has never been questioned. Even the Western allies of the Soviet Union did not want her to pass.

No, questioned only territorial outcome in favor of the USSR. And it suggests that it is an object, the main objective of this whole strategy of demonization and identification of the Soviet Union with Hitler's Nazis are needed to ensure that these results cast doubt, invalidate the signature of the USSR under all international law and territorial system of the second half of the 20 th century under the UN Charter and the right of veto. Maybe even take it away later. And then you can do anything. Our country then there is no legitimate territory, nor a legitimate statehood.

But since the Soviet Union before the 91-year were all recognized by the State, never anyone we do not condemn, and Russia today - a successor, acknowledged the Soviet Union, we inherited all of his signature, all of its rights and obligations, then we should stop trying to insult the Soviet The Union and its symbols, as if we ourselves are within their family or dismantled our real and imagined sins of the time! Because it is a flagrant violation of international law and diplomatic ethics.

And I would have thought that on the eve of Victory Day counteract this strategy - is not just a tribute to the pride of the Great abused, it is the only condition for the preservation of our country as an independent and significant subject of international life and our own history.

N. Boltyanskii - Natalia, but I think that after all, when we talk about the victory over fascism, I am far from your own words, I pulled the following: the victory over fascism and the victory of the Soviet Union. So? If you concentrate on.

N. Narochnitskaya - Yes, please.

N. Boltyanskii - Let us return to this issue immediately after the news. Moreover, I propose that our distinguished audience to join we are discussing the topic. Our room-air phone 203-19-22. Still, could you briefly respond: with whom and for what? Here are two phrases.

N. Narochnitskaya - now or later?

N. Boltyanskii - Yes, right this second.

N. Narochnitskaya - We are at war with Nazi Germany, whose objective is to enslave, destroy, "to gobble up our piles of wheat and suck the sea and ore, in the words of Maximilian Voloshin. Therefore not in trouble with the state, is always sinful and imperfect political institutions, with the Motherland! It is not identical concepts. Therefore, there are moments in history when the life of the nation as a subject of history under threat when it is necessary to rise above controversy on whether good or bad was the state to protect the Fatherland. That sort of attitude toward this war Denikin and Rachmaninoff. After Denikin, a request to bless the Vlasov army literally cried: "I fought with the Bolsheviks, but never with the Russian people! If I now give the post of general in the Red Army, I would show the Germans! "

Why does he say that? Yes, because for him to keep the nation consideration for future generations and the future was more important than to see in his lifetime the collapse of the regime he hated. That's true national identity!

N. Boltyanskii - We continue to talk with Natalia Alekseyevna after the newscast.

NEWS

N. Boltyanskii - So I remind you that in our studio State Duma deputy, historian Natalya Narochnitskaya. We have included telephone 203-19-22. And the theme that we have raised just before the news: after all, the victory over fascism and the victory of the Soviet Union or the victory of the Soviet Union. Natalia, as regards the role of Stalin himself?

N. Narochnitskaya - you know, today's abused feeling when people are tired to hear the mockery of its history, as a reaction to such a principle would otherwise not arisen, the feeling - to protect and rehabilitate Stalin. I believe that Stalin was a product of the revolution, such as Lenin, Stalin's repressions and absolutely, which for some reason only recognizes the West, and absolutely do not recognize ... Lenin! But the Stalinist repression guillotine, so to speak, October Danton and Robespierre, too, you know?

N. Boltyanskii - but not only.

N. Narochnitskaya - but not only, of course. By the way, and my uncle - my father's brother had disappeared exactly in the Stalin era. But my father always said - he survived everything - what was the worst time - Lenin, when crushing all without charge or trial, while sneered at all the Russian and Orthodox, ie, completely destroyed Russian history. When Stalin was partially rehabilitated Russian history, seasoned heavily with class spells, of course. But, nevertheless, about the Russian tsars, of Alexander Nevsky to stop writing that it was a class enemy, as in the 20-ies. And Napoleon ceased to be called a liberator, "as a backward Tsarist Russia was more backward than the French revolutionary regime. Here is a perversion of the class was history. The fact is that, if we talk about Stalin's role in the war, despite, of course, and some failures, and cruelty and the ethics of such an exceptional utility, where sometimes they took the town for the anniversary, and it cost extra hundred thousand lives . All this we must know, explain, etc.

N. Boltyanskii - And remember, the main thing.

N. Narochnitskaya - And remember, yes, these methods ... But in general, is again the same can not now oppose. Here I am opposed to assume that the victory of the communist government and the Soviet regime, as many Communists believe. No, I think that won in the image of the Soviet Union, Great Russia. - Because the nation under the influence of external aggression suddenly regained a sense of national solidarity. People have different claims against the state, but they put it aside. Moreover, the blood shed in defense of the Fatherland, I would say so, cleared of the filth of a fratricidal civil war and reunited with the souls of men, and hence our potential today, the future thread of Russian and Soviet history, which seemed to have been severed forever - general nothing in succession.

And, for example, in 43 th year, people have already died for the Soviet homeland in a tank named after the "Alexander Nevsky", while the 20-ies to the school of Pokrovsky shouted that it was a class enemy, Novgorod suppressed the uprising. Understand? It is not because the Soviet regime, but not contrary.

Here, let's go up and through a different lens in general will look. It is very difficult because, as a rule, two points of view: through or against it. Ie all the time between such an orthodox communist views ...

N. Boltyanskii - ie You stay exactly in the middle?

N. Narochnitskaya - I'm not even in the middle, I - over! They are each other much closer than I am. In order to evaluate the events of this magnitude, we must rise so high that small lines merge into one line. Understand? So do not make a mockery of history and should not be ashamed of the fact that Stalin was the leader of the victorious country, and when we talk about the three leaders: Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin.

Listen! Churchill was the ancestor of all concentration camps in the Boer War. Further, a cynic was decent. Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor, but he needed an excuse to change the social consciousness in favor of entering the war. He interned 200 thousand Japanese, although not threatened with invasion overland. Ie were all good! There is no policy other!

You know, let's separate the revolutionary project, directly alleged reprisals, the destruction of the so-called hostile classes, all reject this revolutionary project, condemned it, but let's not move this to the struggle against foreign aggression against the enemy, because as I said, not in trouble with the state, but with the Motherland!

It was a war not for democracy and not for communism. It was a war for something to remain in the history of a nation with its own choice, sometimes sinful, sometimes right, wrong, but sa-mo-hundred-I-Tel-nym!

N. Boltyanskii - Natalia, we call. Hello! Hello! "Echo of Moscow".

Listener - I absolutely agree with your guests, because everything that happens in the EU, it is the 4 th Reich. And 4 th Reich needs a new ideology.

N. Boltyanskii - You think so?

Listener - They always despise Russia, called it tends to its imperial past, and build yourself an empire, which is likely to be much worse.

N. Boltyanskii - Clearly your opinion, thanks.

N. Narochnitskaya - By the way, you know, our listeners, thanks to him for support, intuitively felt that coincides with the historical and sociological studies of one of my friends of the British Conservative who believes that the Pan-European idea - is a continuation of the same ideas that have been Mussolini and Hitler, among other things. And it just gives the data ... a very serious book, I have it. Well, of course, it will not absolutes. Probably, those liberals who are building a unified liberal "sverhobschestvo" is unlikely to think about the 3-em Reich and believe that they are just opposite to him, but in reality, and instead they are very similar to the ideas of the Third International - also about a classless, unified global sverhobschestve, where the subject is not a nation, and class. But here the subject is not a nation, and the individual. So they really need a new ideology. And they, indeed, that me as a historian and international affairs are concerned - I know very well the history, I know that with the 19 th century, Peter the Great gained, ie Russia's position on the Baltic and the Black Sea - Behold, here is the object of hatred. And any chance: either the internal instability in Russia, or external aggression - it is an occasion to try to push Russia to the north-east of Eurasia. So it was in the First World War, during the revolution and civil war. Those goals put the Kaiser's Germany in the first war and Hitler. And now, excuse me, map of NATO enlargement as two drops of water similar to the map Pan-Germanist 11-year, which I have. Ousting primarily from the Baltic ...

N. Boltyanskii - But for the moment the Baltic countries have already independent states.

N. Narochnitskaya - Yes.

N. Boltyanskii - We again call. Hello! Hello!

Listener Larissa - I want to express their opinion. Even without opinion, but thanks to Natalia for the truthfulness of the kind words about the past of our country, simply because it is already hard to listen to all that mud that poured from all sides. Thank you very much, Natalia.

N. Narochnitskaya - Thank you. You know, we really ... I'm not one of those who would like to hide all sins and fall of our country and nation. And it is alien to the revolutionary ideology, of course, but we are here is our family business - the condemnation of real and imaginary, attributed to the sins we made somehow without Christian humility and dignity. And we poured our Fatherland to public outrage as the biblical Ham. And now we suffer the punishment, because the West has never started a mock victory, if it had not initially been committed in the home victory.

N. Boltyanskii - Our phone number 203-19-22. Hello! Hello! 'm Listening.

Listener - By Natalia question.

N. Boltyanskii - Please.

Listener - I learned from her father, Aleksey Leont'evich, also a historian. And I read the story I know. I can not even understand what she said about some shame. What is the set of completely incomprehensible? That for me is simply inexplicable, talking people who are now so sensitive to any information that there is, I do not know, on the radio, from newspapers. Where does it all?

N. Boltyanskii - Natalia.

N. Narochnitskaya - No, I'm just talking about the shame and do not give up this opinion, because it is owned by the discussion, as I said already, and the sins and failures, and not simply errors - of crimes - is one thing. But when your country declared a failure in world history, trying to strike out the first all that was before the 17-year, as unnecessary, unhistorical, and then all that up to 91-year history does not forgive such samopredatelstva, exactly.

You know, the Bolsheviks had to abolish all that was before the 17 th year. They story of revenge. She sent them to the class brothers in an enemy uniform. The country then cried out for help to his trampled history - it is just for the first time. Now we are making a mockery of everything that was in Soviet times. There was much to worry about. From this must be abandoned. But why should evert everything? Here demonize the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Yes, I as a historian you want to show and the book shows that he is no different from thousands of other similar contracts, with some powers hell boundaries of others. Just another feature quite strange, and the Soviet Union only regained the territory of pre-revolutionary Russia, which, incidentally, before the revolution, it is undisputed and is not considered a colonial empire.

N. Boltyanskii - Natalia, let us for the day today. Your impression from an interview with president of the German magazine Bild?

N. Narochnitskaya - Well, as a historian, I always watch very carefully to see how they are treated, or other historical events. I think that the president generally very correctly explained in his usual calm, so dignified manner. Here I am as a person more free, of course, as a deputy, generally freer than any official government and the president, could be much more sharply, more sharply this to say. But perhaps, just as it should be, as he did. He still tries and on the eve of the Victory did not yield so these treatments.

N. Boltyanskii - As for now the role of, say, the Soviet Union in the fate of the Baltic States?

N. Narochnitskaya - That you know, I have in my opinion said today that the plan of Hitler's Reich, and it is documented that these countries were to become part of Ingermanlandija, the people there really were to become the swineherd and the maids, at best, and barely read as it was written, the German geographical indexes. In our country, they received their share of all - and good and bad, but they remained nations. They became academics ...

N. Boltyanskii - I am now on the assessment of the president of the whole situation with the Baltic countries.

N. Narochnitskaya - She was released it from destruction as a nation. And nobody can dispute.

N. Boltyanskii - Do you think that the president is so interpreted the relationship?

N. Narochnitskaya - So, yes.

N. Boltyanskii - 203-19-22. Hello! Hello!

Listener - you know, I have to ask you a question. Very principled. Here you listen to your radio, but I do listen regularly. All times are assessment of Stalin and Lenin. Where you score bastard Yeltsin?

N. Boltyanskii - Well, you know, I think that we have no right to behave this way. Hello! Hello!

TRAINEES Yuri Mikhailovich - Hello! Hello! I believe that now is the reaction of the Baltic States a little painful reaction to the speeches of our leaders. I think that we are harming them just as small. We must somehow ... do not hang back, we must understand their point of view, of course, an erroneous point of view, but it can understand.

N. Boltyanskii - I understand. Thank you.

N. Narochnitskaya - I can not understand why it was necessary to build their already unchallenged future on the doctrine of negativity against someone. Why can not I find a basis for its future, the future of history without it: the love of her, but not hatred of another. Here is the futility of such a historical concept, which dooms just the Latvians, Estonians and Lithuanians remain in diapers historical childhood, never leave the stage of self-affirmation. Understand? They, I think, must admit that, yes, they were released from the destruction as a nation. In the Soviet Union it was probably not very ... They do not want ... Now that's how they do it ... In fact, the nation was torn apart by then.

N. Boltyanskii - Natalia, but still, perhaps, it is that in Germany, was the process of denazification. Russia, shall we say, not fully repented for the crimes against his own people.

N. Narochnitskaya - And it has no international dimension, you know? Hitler's regime has set a goal to destroy other nations, to turn them into slaves. The Communist idea - nothing more contrary to Nazism. She set the aim of benefiting the whole world, and on this altar even put all national.

N. Boltyanskii - all your own.

N. Narochnitskaya - Of course. Therefore, it is absolutely unlikely ... there - it is a pagan doctrine of natural neravnorodnosti people and nations. Here - the product of the philosophy of progress, so to speak, with all the ugly perversions, repression, etc. Yes, we do not need this repression. We never have to repeat them either, nor allow anything. But we ...

N. Boltyanskii - But we must remember them.

N. Narochnitskaya - But we are talking about the war.

N. Boltyanskii - I remind you that in our studio Natalya Narochnitskaya.

NEWS

N. Boltyanskii - 15 hours 35 minutes. The question, dear listeners, you: whether you want to provide 450 thousand Russian-speaking citizens of Latvia to Russia obtain citizenship under a simplified scheme? In our studio State Duma deputy Natalia Narochnitskaya. She will participate in the conversation. If you have a desire to discuss the subject, telephone direct broadcast 203-19-22. Hello! Hello! Do I need to provide 450 thousand Russian-speaking citizens of Latvia to Russia obtain citizenship under a simplified scheme, how do you think?

Listener - of course.

N. Boltyanskii - Your question Natalia?

Listener - I want the history of our family to remind her that out of our country were interned during the war, my relatives from the Gjatsk in Latvia and they were there as slaves. So Baits us any claim is made that we were occupied, that they there humiliated, oppressed. And the fact that now the village was completely destroyed, that they during the war worked there as laborers ...

N. Boltyanskii - Your question is understandable, thank you. Natalia?

N. Narochnitskaya - Yes. You know, now, these data are very important. I know that at the Foreign Ministry Web site, by the way, there is a great article which documented these activities of the Latvian side during the war shows very well. Another answer was very disturbed by the Embassy of Latvia, etc. It is very important to show. Latvians present themselves in the book "History of Latvia" that they supposedly only because they were threatened with enslavement by the Soviet Union, but so must engage in the SS, etc. But this is absolutely not true. You see, there is even in this book "History of Latvia" in some way for "negligence" the editor of such an episode: it turns out invaders - the Germans destroyed entire villages, Latvian, which "somehow" - the logic of this book - "somehow" supported Red partisans. Ie really do not have to carry at all Latvians. I never write. I know that many Latvians fought together with Russian and absolutely not sought such an independence here. Another thing is that they too were all threatened by the regime, but not more than others, so no special occupation was not there.

N. Boltyanskii - Well, there are different opinions on this matter.

N. Narochnitskaya - Because the occupation regime and stay within the state - two different things, you know ... If the laws for all alone, even if they are not very good, there is no occupation. When the occupation regime does not state prizes awarded to writers and are not selected academicians and professors.

N. Boltyanskii - 203-19-22. Hello! Hello! What is your name?

TRAINEES IGOR - My name is Igor.

N. Boltyanskii - Igor, your opinion?

TRAINEES IGOR - Yes, of course.

N. Boltyanskii - Explain.

TRAINEES IGOR - The fact is that while almost 30% of the population of the state itself, which we believe, and that someone finds it occupied, however, breaks the occupiers, then it's not so bad. Hence, these so-called invaders were in fact liberators.

N. Boltyanskii - Well, as far as I understood from the words of Natasha, not every Russian-speaking citizens eager to get Russia's citizenship. Right?

N. Narochnitskaya - Yes, the fact is that in fact the majority of Russian and Russian in Latvia would like to become full citizens of Latvia, to participate in political life, social life, ie have the right to elect and be elected, to hold any positions, ie participate fully, while maintaining itself as Russian. And this is consistent with democratic standards of Europe. General, when, for example, separation of state from another is the democratic principles of citizenship. Anyone in the seceding part is entitled to citizenship of the country's big, that piece, and remain live on a small piece or vice versa, take a new citizenship. All this has been violated. Ie rules of the democratic option, ie choice has been violated. And announce it, demography Latvians declared result of the occupation regime. This is a flagrant violation of all standards of Europe. We must still stand up for our compatriots. Those who want to get Russia's citizenship, they receive it. But those who want to become citizens of Latvia, should they become.

N. Boltyanskii - Hello! Hello! What is your name?

TRAINEES Petro - My name is Peter Ivanovich. Of course, you want to grant them citizenship under a simplified scheme, but I'm not sure that many Russian citizens in Latvia is willing to have a nationality. They want to have equal rights with the Latvians.

N. Boltyanskii - Yes, just that he talked about our guest.

TRAINEES Petro - but these rules they will never give Latvians are not. Because under the Soviet regime they hated the Russian-speaking population on the vine. It always has been.

N. Boltyanskii - Peter Ivanovich, but perhaps the pendulum?

TRAINEES Petro - What is the pendulum?

N. Boltyanskii - Elementary pendulum. In Soviet times was considered occupiers.

TRAINEES Petro - No, they believed that they were ill, although they have received from Russia, the Soviet Union, we will say so, got a lot of what they would not have, while developing themselves, even adhering to the bourgeois to its annals, the old stories .

N. Boltyanskii - Peter Ivanovich, your opinions heard, thank you. Hello! Hello!

Listener - Good day! You know, I have a question.

N. Boltyanskii - Let us, first you will answer our question.

Listener - Good. I, of course, yes.

N. Boltyanskii - Good. Now, please.

Listener - But I have a question. That's called lord, his family suffered. We reverse. Our family friend, Latvian, who was educated in Lloydovskoy Academy in England. He lived in England, his family was there, and he came to bury his mother. And as time went by our troops and, of course, it is not released to his family in London. And he ... Well, of course, the camp and everything else. That's what interests me, so if the Americans were released to Latvia and he would have turned in, they would have released him to his family in London?

N. Boltyanskii - Thank you. Your question is heard. I ask Natalia Alekseevnu answer it, but not immediately, we first announced the results of our vote. Natalia, a combination of voices you waiting for?

N. Narochnitskaya - I think most would say: to recognize and give citizenship.

N. Boltyanskii - Exactly. You can even, perhaps, could ...

N. Narochnitskaya - 90%

N. Boltyanskii - 91% believe that needs a ...

N. Narochnitskaya - Well, it's so natural. But I would like to reiterate, not all living in Latvia, Russia wants Russian citizenship. They fear that dislodge them, that they will be repaired the same obstacles. They want to become full citizens with equal rights, but to remain with the Russian.

N. Boltyanskii - Well, more about that after the news.

NEWS

N. Boltyanskii - you're listening to "Echo of Moscow". Natalia, that you received a message to a pager: "Hitler - the criminal, because the genocide carried out in foreign countries, and Pol Pot and Stalin exterminated his own people - and this is an internal historical process. It turns out the discrepancy.

N. Narochnitskaya - What is the discrepancy?

N. Boltyanskii - In what one called a criminal, but on the other you are, allegedly, admit.

N. Narochnitskaya - No, I am beginning to say that when we are discussing the sins and imperfections of the political institution of our country, we condemn these sins. Do not, incidentally, are here to provide special Stalin from Lenin. I've been pushing for it. I always pay attention: Why the West is trying to equate Stalin and Hitler, not Lenin, for example. And I already said why. Yes because under Stalin was restored great power, but it is not paid for repression, which is all talk and all of them on their lips. Because neither in the 37 th year, nor in the 20 years the Soviet state was not a great power. So just as a result of the fight against Hitler's aggression. So when we talk about the revolutionary project, with its plans to destroy hostile to the bourgeois classes, etc., we condemn it all, but when we talk about war, do not move here now. That is a false prism through which we view the struggle against foreign aggression, which was designed to enslave the country, just the elimination of her as a subject of world history.

It so happens that if the state was bad, we can not sympathize with him when he was attacked. It's like that ... You see, that's the logic of such an ethic is terrible. Here comes a man on the road. At the robber attacked him. And you think: maybe he was unfaithful to his wife in the morning or beat their children or stolen yesterday. So that he does not deserve ... when you stretch out a hand a drowning man, you that, you ask: is not sin if you this morning? Yes, different things, that's what I'm talking about. And the fact that we dug into our own history, this is our family business. And we'll continue to dig, and work our way, and will be a lesson for us in the future. This certainly.

N. Boltyanskii - Natalia, but as you consider whether you need to be some form of still repentance before their own people?

N. Narochnitskaya - And who should repent? You know, that's the word repentance ... our society is godless atheist all the time uses doctrinal categories, bringing them into political life. Repentance - this is purely personal category. Repent can only be one person, a person with a soul. All collective organisms do not have souls. Understand? And so it does not apply to this.

N. Boltyanskii - But when there were structures, special structures, which ...

N. Narochnitskaya - Yes, but condemned already. How many were in the times of Khrushchev, who himself was a matter of fact ...

N. Boltyanskii - not sinless.

N. Narochnitskaya - Yes, yes, yes. But, nevertheless, condemned the cult of personality, repression, etc. People returned from concentration camps. My father, incidentally, was posthumously rehabilitated his brother. But by the way, never for some reason no one is exonerated Lenin's repression against members of the traditional Russian classes. This reason no one speaks. Do you know why? But I suspect, because then, if the condemned Lenin's repression, to sympathize with the object of destruction: "Russia is big, united and indivisible." And it is this reason ... It is this indivisibility, the country's unity, so that its territory for some reason, declared that she was "under the glow of the proletarian revolution, the Communists say, and under the iron hoop of totalitarianism," said the enemies of communism. And both are identical to the definition, because they are denied the State in the historical past. So as soon as, for example, cast doubt on the feasibility and the good "Lights of the proletarian revolution, immediately cast doubt on the feasibility of unity, as in 91 year. A struggle against the "iron hoop" in general is always legitimate.

N. Boltyanskii - Natalia, well, somehow I think you people quite happy in private life. I think that I am not mistaken, but if, God forbid ...

N. Narochnitskaya - I always say, thank God for everything, but ...

N. Boltyanskii - ... Your life partner says: "Well, I do not want to live with you." Well, to keep his party committee?

N. Narochnitskaya - No, of course.

N. Boltyanskii - And it turns out that the great and indivisible in a certain moment cracked. Well, we can no longer live together.

N. Narochnitskaya - I did not discuss now a fact of destruction and disintegration of the Soviet Union. And by the way it was demolished and the communist idea, it has declared that some unknown source who had taken in 17 году independent nations have decided to unite on the basis of the proletarian revolution. It also served as the destruction, of course, because when questioned in the good of the lights, so ... But nevertheless, I just order all the time, enter these concepts and pre-revolutionary Russia, to show that all the conviction and the present, and the Soviet past for some reason then we have one aim only: one way or another to justify the inevitable loss of territory. Understand? From the Baltic to the Black Sea, "from the Finnish rock to chill the fiery Colchis." Hence, the task of the whole "not an ideology, in fact, and the elimination of geopolitical giant, which has always been a great power. First there was the great Russia, then was the Soviet Union, only became such after the sacrificial struggle against Nazi aggression. And it is this area ...

N. Boltyanskii - Well, who did something that ruined a great power?

N. Narochnitskaya - Yes, we do too, of course.

N. Boltyanskii - Glory to God, Natalia, thank God!

N. Narochnitskaya - I said that this desecration of the Victory to blame something, those who first ... No one in the West did not dare, in 91, all Poles, Latvians were so grateful that they were released, no such was not. We have allowed ourselves to come to power there and educate the militant anti-Russian elites, who just now can not get out of this paranoia, you know? We need to make an effort to help educate the elite there is a normal healthy and social forces that look to the future, not divide us symbols of the past, which we will never find agreement. We have a slogan: "We share the characters of the past, but must combine challenges of the future". We'll be there from each other to hold your hand. We live near.

N. Boltyanskii - What do you think we can now use this slogan?

N. Narochnitskaya - It's difficult, because many now false. We are not always wise use and general use of the opportunities, resources that we have. But it is possible and necessary.

N. Boltyanskii - your - you said that your father rehabilitated late uncle, was killed, yes, uncle?

N. Narochnitskaya - Yes, yes.

N. Boltyanskii - A sensation at the same time he had what? Justice has triumphed?

N. Narochnitskaya - But you know, the sadness was still, of course, yes. Sadness was very big. And well, what do. By the way, however, my father, who has survived everything: a revolution, and saw the horrific exactly Lenin's repression, when without trial trio went from house to house in his hometown of Chernihiv and simply took away the girls, engineers, and shot. And he always bitterly joked that Stalin revived such bourgeois superstitions as the concept of measures of guilt and punishment, because the revolutionary ...

N. Boltyanskii - But in the Jesuit form, agree.

N. Narochnitskaya - Yes, but the revolutionary theory Stuchki read that one should not even find fault with the representative of a hostile class. It should be easy to calculate, how many must be destroyed so they do not interfere with the revolution, because they are still not free in their actions. They are the product of social conditions.

N. Boltyanskii - should bury Lenin?

N. Narochnitskaya - you know, as a Christian, I certainly think we should cover the body of the sarcophagus, and bring him to the ground. As for now fans of the mausoleum, I think we can still wait a bit, just to naturally took a generation for whom this will be very difficult, but sooner or later we will certainly bring this body to the ground.

N. Boltyanskii - Tell me, please, that's from your point of view, very much the same alteration in the 85-th year later to open the floodgates of large shocks in respect of Lenin. It has long been a theory that was a good Lenin and then Stalin came and all ispohabil. That's your opinion, today there is a precedent for the assessment of Lenin's role in the history of pogroms?

N. Narochnitskaya - You know, just so I can tell you: when perestroika began, our post-Soviet dissidents and liberals have revived nothing but a Leninist Bolshevik nihilistic interpretation of the whole of Russian history. Remember Sakharov, Gorbachev schools that have 53 States in the territory of the Soviet Union - Lenin's plan! This is the Leninist principles of foreign policy, forgive me! All that said, Lenin and Trotsky on Russia, as a prison of peoples which has been reproduced here virtually all of our ideological guru.

N. Boltyanskii - But Gorbachev also ...

N. Narochnitskaya - I'm just amazed, I thought, my God, it's like I'm back in the days of 20-ies, in what my father told me how it was, instead of truly Christian humility to think about that led to our fall, that the internal crisis, led to the unconditional, that ... Our government no longer love ourselves because to the 91 th year, you know?

N. Boltyanskii - Yes I have a feeling that we had stopped loving him.

N. Narochnitskaya - Yes, yes, we no longer love him. We do not believe this ideology, it did not fit ... Purely materialist ideology, and yet in the material sphere, it could not compete more ... Although now, many, of course, in the wake of a monstrous bundle and the structural poverty - it is not accidental, but structural, ie . pragmatic economic system, millions of people today, many remember with nostalgia the social security.

N. Boltyanskii - sausages was not, but it could get.

N. Narochnitskaya - A medicine, etc.? There were, of course, the social things that we should be proud, and it was not throw them. And Europe, incidentally, was envious of us after the war. She was 50 years to free medicine. Nevertheless, we are now all done. I just noticed all the time, and in my big book "Russia and Russian in world history," I just write about how, unfortunately, we have the entire dispute after the restructuring is actually between Lenin and Stalin, and not between Russia and communist project. Here I stand on the positions of Russia, and it was here that, as before, and I want the continuity somehow hold to this day.

And when we are constantly told that there is a revolution brings something, something something, but then when it was put in Stalin's totalitarian hoops .... But sorry, Lenin and other habits were much more cruel than Stalin. Ie They were absolutely two of generation of the revolutionary project. Others simply did not could be, you know? The other simply could not be. And then, of course, the state passed the stage of violence, because it would not have lasted 75 years, if it had not passed that stage. Because, of course, only if society becomes self-perpetuating, when these ideas acquire normal people, and they are born with the idea that they have the best.

By the way, here is awarded the whole of Eastern Europe, communism, but was awarded what was in themselves, and we felt the best in the world! If they imposed something awful, like Hitler wanted, but for myself, then saved the would be something much more ...

N. Boltyanskii - But socialism is not too sweet.

N. Narochnitskaya - Yes, they did not have a tenth of what we had.

N. Boltyanskii - I thank our guest. And, perhaps, Natalia, you want someone to congratulate?

N. Narochnitskaya - I want first of all, congratulations to all my mother's generation. My mother - a fearless partisan of the Great Patriotic War. And I bow low before their deed. And how would they not mocked in the back of our "humanists" professional, eternal glory of these heroes. They have defended our country from disappearing from the world's history. A feat only because the feat and, incidentally, that was not accomplished for the price and convenience.

N. Boltyanskii - I remind you that in our studio Natalya Narochnitskaya, deputy chairman of the Duma Committee for International Affairs. Thank you.

N. Narochnitskaya - Thank you.